The translation space

by Clear-headed Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:01 pm

Hello translation lovers!

Transltion is way beyond the seach for the lexical equivalence.It's ,in fact, a way complicated process aiming to convey the meanings,the thoughts,the feelings and on top,the culture of the auther hidden behind Its words.

In this topic, any member can propose any literary text to be translated by the others .Of cource,the posted translations will be criticized and assessed. This would be a good space to learn and practice translation.

Let me begin by a short paragraph extracted from the poetic novel Broken wings written by Khalil Gibran and published in 1912.

الكآبة الخرساء

أنتم أيها الناس تذكرون فجرالشبيبة فرحين باسترجاع رسومه متأسفين على انقضائه ، أما أنا فأذكره مثلما يذكر الحر المعتق جدران سجنه و ثقل قيوده . أنتم تدعون تلك السنين التي تجيء بين الطفولة و الشباب عهدا ذهبيا يهزأ بمتاعب الدهر و هواجسه و يطير مرفرفا فوق رؤوس المشاغل و الهموم مثلما تجتاز النحلة فوق المستنقعات الخبيثة سائرة نحو البساتين المزهرة ؛ أما أنا فلا أستطيع أن أدعو سني الصبا سوى عهد آلام خفية خرساء كانت تقطن قلبي . و تثور كالعواصف في جوانبه و تتكاثر نامية بنموه ، و لم تجد منفذا تتصرف منه الى عالم المعرفة حتى دخل اليه الحب و فتح أبوابه و أنار زواياه . فالحب قد أعتق لساني فتكلمت و مزق أجفاني فبكيت و فتح حنجرتي فتنهدت و شكوت

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Good luck!

by Hush Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:39 pm

Dumb Melancholy

You people, you remember the dawn of youth feeling happy to resurrect its paintings, regretful for it passed away; whereas I remember it like an emancipated slave remembers his jail’s dreary walls and weary chains. You call those years amid childhood and youth a golden age, quipping its troubles and misgivings, flying high above the tops of worries and concerns, like a bee flying over filthy morasses towards flourishing gardens; though for me I cannot call my juvenility but an age of hidden, dumb pains dwelled deep in my heart; blew up in its wings like monstrous storms growing up hand in hand with it, finding no way out to the world of wisdom until love came in and opens my heart’s doors and enlightened every corner. Love emancipated my tongue so I talked, torn up my eyelids so I cried and opened my throat so I sighed and complained.

That's my first shot

by the youth Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:59 pm

I'll give mine though it's of no use now..compared to Hush's

Dumb sorrow
O people, you remember the dawn of youth, happy to recall its pictures, sorry that it's gone.I do remember it like a freed man who remembers his prison walls and chains' heaviness.You call those years that come between childhood and youth a golden era, one that makes fun of time's troubles and apprehensions, and flies above worries and conserns like a bee flying over filthy swamps to flowered gardens.As of me, i can not name my age a youth but a period of dumb hidden pains used to live in my heart, storm like tempests in its sides, growing as it grows, and they did not find a way out through to recognize the world of knowledge untill love came in, opening its doors and enlightening its corners.Love set my tongue free so I spoke, ripped up my eye-lids so I wept, and opened my throat so I sighed and complained.

by imy Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:38 pm

This is my attempt,it is actully of no big deal.but shal we iterprete it word by word or understand the meaning and interprete it????

Dumb depression,

you people,remember the dawn of youth,happy to recuperate its painting,sorry for its elapse.Whereas for me,i remember it like a free man who remembers his prison's walls and chains.You call that years that comes between childhood and youth golden age,mocking its eternity troubles and apprehensions,flying high above the top of worries and concernes just like a bee flying above wicked swamps towards flowrishing gardens.As for me,i cannot call it a youth but an age of hidden,dumb pains that settled deep in my heart,rages like a tempest by its sides,growing as it grows,finding no way out to the world of wisdom untill love enters and opens its doors and enlighten its angles.Love released my toung so i talked,rend my eyelides so i cried,and opened my throat so i sighed and complained.

by Hush Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:57 am

imy wrote:This is my attempt,it is actully of no big deal.but shal we iterprete it word by word or understand the meaning and interprete it????

Word for word is not a translation but a conversion from one linguistic code to another. We're always after "meaning", though the latter's so difficult to define!

by imy Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:11 pm

THANKS FOR THE NEW INFORMATION

by the youth Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:28 pm

Here's my second try..if you guys don't mind.

Hushed gloominess
People, you remember the dawn of youth, happy rejoicing its images, and sorry at its end.Its rememberence to me is as that of jail walls and loaded shackles to a released prisoner.You see years of teens as golden, disdainful of life's toil and weariness, flying high on tops of anxieties alike to a bee that flies above malignant swamps going to rosy groves; for me I call it not a youth but a time of unseen mute sufferences dwelt in my heart once, they blow like squalls in its sides, they grow as it grows up, unable to know a way out so to meet the world of literacy untill love got in, unlocking its doors and brightening its corners.Thus love untied my tongue so I uttered, tore my eyelids so I whimpered, and opened my throat so I sighed and whined.

by Clear-headed Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:48 pm

Hi and sorry for the late translation!

People, when you remember your younger days, you feel happy about racalling its pictures and regretful that it slipped away.Whilst,I remember them as an enfranchized slave recollecting the walls of his cell and the heaviness of his chackles.
You call the years amidst childhood and youth a golden era,jeering the hard times and the time's obsessions;overflying the peaks of concerns and anxieties as a bee overpassing a squalid swamp towards the gardens in bloom.
As for me, I cannot call my youthfulness but an age of hidden and dull pains which were nesting in my heart;breaking like storms within its flanks;growing up together with it and it didn't get an outlet to the world of awairness till love conquered it;opened its doors and enlightend its corners.Thus, love had emancipated my tongue so I talked,had torn my eyelids so I cryed and had open my throat so I sighed and complained.

by Clear-headed Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:02 am

my heart’s doors and...
Hello Hush,thank you for the wonderful translation.In fact ,I feel a bit ill-at-ease to comment on the -'s you used with the word heart which is a thing.In my opinion,the -'s can't be used with noun of things.

Thanks again

by Hush Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Hello Clear-headed and thank you for this comment that allows me to give a tip about translating literary texts. In fact, your comment is grammatically true, but I intended to use the 's because I wanted to personify the heart, to make of it a living creature. Personification is one of the literary techniques. The idea in the original text is that the heart is thought of as a place that becomes living, from a dead place to a living entity, as if Love is a soul, a breath of life.

Small details make the difference in translation and we have to know that the grammatical rules no longer work when coming to literary texts. There a certain level of language where no rules are settled.

As far as my translation is concerned, it's far from being wonderful, it's just a first shot to get the ball rolling. Thanks for all the contributors and waiting for more comments to enrich the topic

by the youth Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:36 pm

Ok Hush..what about me changing "chains' heaviness" in the first translation to "loaded shackles" in the second..i mean _regardless to the different words- is it alright shifting from talking of what things are refered to, to how things themselves are described? i.e..was I supposed to keep the order by keeping "heaviness of chains" instead of " chains that are heavy"?
I hope I made myself clear.
Waiting..

by delkader Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:27 pm

In short ; you should stick to the translation you released first concerning shackle's heaviness.it better conveys the meaning embodied in the source text.

by Hush Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:51 pm

Hello, the matter is not in the order of words, and the order should definitely not be followed if it sounds strange in the "target language". Now there are two things to be mentioned: First the choice of diction, here "loaded shackles" is better I believe. Now there's a small nuance in your translation comparing with the original. When we read your translation we understand that the freed man remembers the jail walls and the loaded shackles in general, i.e no matter what jail walls and what loaded shackles are, but it's about the prisoner's jail wall and shackle in the original text. It's more intimate then talking about them in general.

by Clear-headed Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:26 pm

Hello everyone,what you did in tranlating "ثقل قيوده" by the "loaded shackles" is that you changed the view point to the same thing.In the original text,the author mentioned the "heaviness" of the shackles whereas you mentioned the "shackles" that are loaded.This difference in the view point is called "MODULATION"(التطويع).
However,I think that it would better if you used an other word instead of "loaded" because I don't see that it conveyes the meaning of heaviness.

by w_ch Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:01 am

You ,people, remember the dawn of youth,feeling happy to recall its paintings ,yet sorry that it's gone; whilst I recall it as the once-being prisoned man do to his jail's walls as well as his heavey shockles. You name those years that come in between childhood and youth a golden age, making fun of its problems and misgivings,flying above the heads of concerns and worries,just like a bee does over the dirty swamps ,heading towards the flourished gardens;whereas,I can't call my childhood anything but an era of hidden and dumb pains that used to live in my heart. They were like fierce storms blowing in my heart's sides and gorwing as it grows,finding no chance to escape to the world of knowledge untill LOVE enters my heart,opening its doors and lightening up its gloomy corners. Love freed my tongue,so I spoke;torn up my eyelids, so I cried;opened up my throat,so I sighed and complained

PS: I really don't know how to do this and I'm sure that there are countless mistakes that I'll be very pleased if someone pointed them up. Thanks a lot.

by Clear-headed Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:29 pm

They were like fierce ...untill LOVE enters my heart...Love freed my tongue,so I spoke

Thank you w_ch and congratulation for your translation.

First,we sould know that Arabic and English are two different languages.One of the most prominent non-similarities are the nature of their verbs.The Arab verbs are known to be as verbs of aspect whereas the English verbs are knows as verbs of time.The arabic language does not pay attention to the exact time when the action happens,it focus rather on the completion of the action,that is to say,when the action is done,we use the past tens(الماضي);when the action has not yet finished or will happen in the futur,we use the futur(المضارع or المستقبل).What English,in contrast,focus on is the exact time when the action happens.That's the reason why there are much more tenses in English than Arabic.This phenomenon makes things somehow complicated to an arabic-speaker to learn English or a similar language in one side,and for the arab translator whose target language is English.
So have to think twice before using any tense.

Good luck

by Guest Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:37 pm

true that traslation means interpretin meanings nd it gives less importance to th word itself!

by w_ch Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:46 pm

Thank you Clear-headed for the a precious information.When I read my post again,I realized what you wanted to say.I'll try to be more careful next time Smile

by Clear-headed Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:19 pm

Hello dear all,
I was waiting for someone to suggest an other text but no one did.So let me give you this short extract from Tawfiq el-Hakim's novels "Ash'ab",1938.

أشعب و الكندى البخيل
جاء العصر و أشعب يتسكع في الأسواق إلى أن انتهى به المطاف أمام بستان من بساتين الكندي . فوقف و أرسل بصره ، فوجد صاحبه جالسا تحت شجرة على ماء جار و سط خضرة ، و قد بسط بين يديه منديلا فيه لحم سكباج بارد و قطع جبن و زيتونات و صرة فيها ملح و أخرى فيها أربع بيضات . فاقترب منه و مر به مسلما عليه . فرد الكندي السلام قائلا:
- هلم عافاك الله.
و إذا أشعب أسرع من خطف البرق في صحن السماء قد انثنى راجعا يريد أن يعدي جدول الماء . فصاح به الكندي و هو يأكل :
- مكانك .. فإن العجلة من عمل الشيطان ..
فوقف أشعب مأخوذا.. فسأله الكندي :
- تريد ماذا ؟
فأجاب أشعب :
- أتريد أن أتغذى ..؟!
فحملق فيه الكندي قائلا :
- و لم ذلك ؟ و كيف طمعت في هذا ؟ و من أباح لك مالي ؟
فقال أشعب :
- أولست قد دعوتني ؟
فأجاب الكندي :
- ويلك ! لو ظننت أنك هكذا أحمق ما رددت عليك السلام . ماذا كان بيننا غير سلام و رد سلام ، أي كلام بكلام ، و لكنك تريد أن يكون كلام بفعال . و قول بأكل ، فهذا ليس من الإنصاف .
و ازدرد الرجل بيضة مما بين يديه . وجعل أشعب ينظر إليه لحظة ثم قال له :
- لقد رأيتك تأكل وحدك .
فبلغ الكندي ريقه ثم قال :
- ليس علي في هذا الموضوع مسألة . إنما المسألة على من أكل مع الجماعة ، لأن ذلك هو التكلف. و أكلي وحدي هو الأصل . وأكلي مع غيري زيادة في الأصل . و إذا كانت الوحدة خيرا من جليس السوء . فإن جليس السوء خير من أكيل السوء . لأن كل أكيل جليس . و ليس كل جليس أكيلا

Don't forget, to translate is to re-birth ideas and images.Translation is creation of another life. Translation breaths into a new text, through another language, the life of the original text.

by Clear-headed Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:57 am

Hello dears,
Here it is my awful translation.I admit, translation is not easy at all!

Ash'ab and the miser Kindy

It's already afternoon and Ash'ab still meandering in markets until he got one of the Kindy's gardens.He stood, looked over and saw the owner sitting in an all-greeness under a tree and beside a stream.He had spread out a napkin on which he had put a cold ragout, pieces of cheese, some olives, a pack of salt and another pack containing four eggs.Ash'ab came up, passed by and bade him salaam.
The Kindy rebade salaam and said: "Come on! may God have keep you healthy."
On a sudden, Ash'ab terned over in a flash wanting to cross the stream.
-"Stop!Hasteness is on account of Satan's deeds."
Ash'ab stoped astonished.
-"What do you want?"The Kindy asked.
-"Do you want me to have lunch?!" Ash'ab responded.
The Kindy stared at him and then said:"Why?how have you conveted this?and who allow you my livelihood?"
-"Have not you invited me?" Ash'ab asked.
-"Woe betide you! If I knew you are such a stupid, I would not rebid salaam. We had nothing in common but biding and rebiding salaam, that is, words for words. But you wanted it to be words for deeds and words for eating.That is not fair!" The Kindy replyed and then bolted down an egg. Ash'ab looked at him for a while then said:"I saw you eating alone."
The Kindy swallowed and said:"This is not a problem for me. The problem is with who eat in company because that is an affectation. My principle is to eat lonely. And eating in company is an addition to the principle. If loneliness is better than having a bad companion, the bad companion is better than having bad soul with whom you eat. Because anyone with whom you eat is a companion but not all companions are souls with whom you eat."

Awful !

by Clear-headed Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:10 am

Hello,recently it seems that I'm haunting the translation space alone.Where you dears and where are your posts.Please,don't wait others to post then you do so. The translation space Icon_neutral

by Guest Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:52 pm

Hi...
I haven't paid attention to this great corner,your translation is great clear-headed but the text is difficult...I'm gonna try ...your comments are welcomed
ََAsh'ab and the miser Kindy
It was theafternoon whenAsh'ab was loitering betweenthemarkets until he came toone of th Kindy's gardens. He stood and tooh alookon the owner whowas sitting under a tree beside a flowing stream in themiddel ofa green land, he already prepared a scarf with Sikbadj meat and some cheese pieces and olives, with salt and four eggs. Ash'ab approached, strolled by him and saluted him. The Kindy answerd:" welcome! God bless you".
At that moment, Ash'ab returns as a lightning in the sky tocross the stream. The Kindy yelled:" Stop! Haste is from Satan".
AstounishedAsh'ab stood,the Kendy asked him:" What doyou want?".
"Do you want to have launch with you?"
The kindy look at himfor a while and said:
"Why,How did you covet this?Who allow you touse my money?"
"didn't you invite me?!",Ash'ab asked.
"Woe unto you! If I realised that you are just a stupid I would not sallute you.what was between us more than a salam, just a few words, but you want more, you want to eat for these words; this is not fair", said the Kindy, then devoured an egg.Ash'ab looked at him, then said: " I saw you eating alone".
the Kindy said:
" I have no problem in this, but the problem is with who eat with a group, because that is an affectation. eating alone is the origine, and eating with the others exceeds the origine and if the loneliness better than the bad companion,this latter is better than bad eater;because every eater is a companion and not every companion is an eater".
Weaaaak,I know!!

by Clear-headed Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:55 pm

Hello angeleyes,
Good job! The translation is not as bad as you think, as it's your first shot. Try to translate it again without reading or looking at your first translation and you'll notice the difference. When you finish, read the translation, read it again and again as it's not yours.
Some of the incorrectnesses are:
"It was theafternoon " > It was afternoon.
"between the markets" > in the markets.
"He stood and tooh alookon the owner ">He stood and saw the owner(him) sitting under...
" Sikbadj" > ragout.
"you to use my money">' مالي 'does not mean 'money' in this context.
"Woe unto you"> woe to you or woe betide you.
"what was between us more... "> this is a literal translation.Try to get rid of the original text language and re-express the idea as it should be originally expressed in the taget language.
...
We are waiting for your second endeavour.
Good luck!

by Guest Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:34 pm

Ash'ab and the miser Kindy
It was afternoon and Ash'ab still loitering in the markets until he arrived to one of the Kindy's gardens. He stood and saw the owner sitting under a tree on a stream flows in a green land, he has already prepared a scarf with a cold ragout, pieces of cheese and olives, and a packet of salt and another of four eggs.Ash'ab approached and saluted him ,the Kindy answerd:
"welcome! God bless you".
At that moment, Ash'ab returns as a lightning in the sky to cross the stream. The Kindy yelled:" Stop! Haste is from Satan".
Astounished Ash'ab stood,the Kendy asked him:" What do you want?".
"Do you want to have launch with you?"
The kindy look sharply at him and said:
"Why,How did you covet this?who allow you my nourishment?".
Ash'b said:" haven't you invited me?".
"Woe to you! If I realised that you are stupid,I wouldn't salute you. we had shared nothing but salam, words for words,but you want it for deeds,this is not fair!", the Kindy answerd, then he devoured an egg, Ash'ab looked at him for a while and said: "I saw you eating alone"
"I have no problem in this, but the problem is with who eat with a group, because that is an affectation. eating alone is the origine, and eating with the others exceeds the origine and if the loneliness better than bad companion,this latter is better than bad eater;because every eater is a companion and not every companion is an eater".

The translation space Icon_question

what about this.....

by Clear-headed Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:26 am

Hi,
Wow! That puts your first shot in the shade! It seems that your going to lead off this space.

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